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Reach out to Francesco through LinkedIn
- Reverse fishbone diagram: a tool in aid of design for product retirement (Kosuke Ishii - Burton Lee) - Link. The entire idea of the dis-assembly map started from here.
- Guidelines and Design strategies for improved product recyclability. (Nathalie Hultgren) - Link
Note: This is a rough transcript that contains hiccups/typos. It could still be useful to the listeners that would like to come back to a precise point of the discussion.
Francesco: Hi my name is Francesco De Fazio. I'm a sustainable product design engineer at Van Berlo part of Accenture. 27 years old. And yeah, I work in the past three, four years on circular product design implementation.
Baptiste: We're going to talk just about sustainable design. So the whole idea is to provide insights which are valuable to, let's say, the community.
So what I'm interested about is if you could share a bit of your vision on sustainable design and maybe your definition of sustainability.
Francesco: Yeah. So for me, my definition about sustainability is really connected to the planetary boundaries. I see it in a very practical way that if we don't respect these planetary boundaries, if we don't stop, if we don't manage, if we don't slow down these phenomenons, the life on earth might look very different compared to how it looks today. And it might lead to Human extinction.
One thing that I really made me think was the interview of some sustainability expert that was actually pointing out how sustainability is also really about human life and how we know it today.
Because the truth is that the world in itself, the ecosystem in the millions of years would find ways to recover out of a climate disaster. So many times when we talk about sustainability, I feel many people really talk about the environmental consequences they see the impact of, for instance, the biosphere.
But to me, sustainability is really related to human survival and human extension because in my opinion, the biosphere always gonna find a way to regenerate even outta the climate disaster while the key issue, the key challenge is how do we survive as human beings out of these challenges?
Baptiste: And so if I follow up on this, you manage to connect the planetary boundaries typically with like sustainable design in a certain way?
Francesco: Yeah. I think that that's maybe the most challenging thing to, to do for a designer, right? Because as designers, we definitely have a huge impact.
We have a very big impact on many different aspects. So, for instance, as a product designer, you can have a very big impact on the way that you design your products and perhaps even beyond that. So services and systems at the same time (etc.).
Many times I feel faced with this belief that as designers, we also have a limit to what impact we can actually achieve, right? There are many other things that, at least in the short term, perhaps, can have a much higher impact than one designer is ever gonna achieve. So if we look at also the climate change boundaries are evolving so fast and so rapidly and the type of impacts that we can achieve as designers.
I start to reflect sometimes if what I'm doing is ever gonna have a relevant impact to limit this type of boundaries. So that doesn't mean that we should not do anything, right?
We should always try to strive and do the best we can but sometimes that put things in perspective for me, which on one side helps because it kind of make me feel like it's beyond my control.
And I think that somehow convince me in thinking, it is not on me to save the world. But at the same time, I think it's a bit depressing to think of that I'm not in a position where I can have the impact that I would like to have.
Baptiste: Well that's a good point in like this idea of responsibility. How would you consider your best way to make an impact? Because now you, you went into this track of like sustainable design and design engineering and that's one way, but we know it may not be most efficient. Do you think it's maybe the best way, or would you say, if I was a lobbyist, if I as someone else, I would have like a different kind of impact?
Francesco: I often think about that, right? If you would truly completely focus on sustainability, so your aim in life will be striving to make the biggest impact… then yeah my belief is that probably you would not be a designer. Right?
I feel that there are some roles that for sure have a much bigger impact compared to what a designer on its own can have. Then of course there are exceptions. I think there are specific companies that perhaps are leading the way and there are designers behind these companies that are doing very big steps and they are creating a very big impact.
But at the same time, again, if you objectively look at what is happening and what has more or less impact, I would say that being part of a regulatory body or being involved in those technologies that are really helping to capture carbon could be seen as something more impactful to do
I feel that at some point you always also has to realise that there are other things in life, that you have to take into account. So what is your passion? What is that makes you happy every day? I remember reading on LinkedIn that the burnout rates are extremely high for people working on sustainability.
And I think there is a reason. For sure one of them is that many people end up doing activities in their everyday life that is not really what they would like to do if they could pick. But many times people that really care about sustainability end up doing activities that they know have higher impact than other activities that perhaps they would prefer to focus on.
Then you end up in this very hard mental state. Where you feel the pressure, you feel “I need to do something about this” and that pushes you away from what actually makes you happy in life.
You see the things are going very slow and many times you question if what you are doing is actually having an impact. So you would like to give up. But then you know, you go out in summer and you see that the summer is getting warmer and warmer and warmer, and you see fires around and you feel that type of responsibility on your shoulder.
So you end up in this vicious circle where, on one side, you realize that what you do every day is not what makes you happy. But on the other hand, you feel the responsibility to do it. And then all of a sudden you start realising, well, is this some the most sustainable thing I can do? And perhaps it's not. So I think the mentally it has a big strain on people working on the topic.
Baptiste: So from that standpoint, maybe coming back to the role of designers, there is a certain impact as a designer. You must have some tools, methodologies? Things that are helpful to design more sustainably? Can you share some that you have in mind?
Francesco: I'm one of those people that love methods and processes. I think it's something that is really important to keep in mind and to use as a designer. To make sure that you are doing the right things.
For me, the worst thing that could ever happen is that I take decisions that perhaps end up having a negative impact, even if my initial intention were right. For me, that's really the worst case scenario. Using methods and tools has the power to be a little bit more sure, at least, that you are doing educated decisions and that you are not risking to end up doing in the opposite effect that you were trying to look for.
And I see it happening many times with designers, right? I see many companies that are starting with a good intention, and end up putting on the market stuff that is practically going in the opposite direction.
So I really like to have a structured approach. I like to take things step by step, so I really believe in the power of data and insights collection. I believe in the insight driven approach, and I'm really scared when I see designers skipping that phase, because then you base a lot of decisions on your intuition, which I don't think is intrinsically wrong but I feel that you need the balance between the two.
You cannot only rely on intuition, and of course you cannot only rely on insights. So for instance, I always try to integrate user research in the process. If I'm working on topics that are really related to eventually also how the user behavior is gonna play a role (and that happens most of the time with design) it's not just enough to make Products easy disassemble.
If then people don't do it or they do it in the right way, for instance, to disassemble a battery and throw it in the garbage bin, and then that ends up in the landfill, then you have to question if you actually had a positive or negative impact.
- So user research I think is a very important one.
- Then of course, requirements management is something that I really, I believe he's extremely important.
Again, these are those type of activities that connecting back to what I was saying before are not steps in the process of design that I particularly like, but I feel that are extremely important and that's why I often spend a lot of time more than what I would like to in these spaces.
So for instance, defining exactly what is that I'm trying to achieve? How am I planning to achieve it and what am I doing at design level to achieve them? I really believe that if you skip these steps, You reach to end up implementing your product. Some things that are more coming out of your personal preference rather than a real need.
And sustainability is also a lot about being careful with what you are adding inside the product, right? So when you think about features, is that feature really necessary? Because every time that you add something in your product that determines a higher environmental impact. So I really believe that is very important for these designers to be careful and to have a very good rational behind what they are integrating in their solutions.
And then after you do that, so let's say you design, define that strategies that is assembly, then for instance, following approach also that has been defined also by, for instance European Commission and Research Centers.
So, for instance, a good way of working for dis-assembly is defining exactly which parts should be easy to disassemble, based on facts and not intuition. I saw in the past that intuition can bring you really in the opposite direction. You assume that a part, fails very often, and then you look at the data and it is actually the opposite. And then you design everything for that part and not for another part.
Dis-assembly mapping is something that I use to understand really today how a product is designed. There are many reasons why a product looks the way it does. So for me, it's very important to understand that before proposing solutions. To understand the constraints and the opportunities that are there. And and then after that defining clear opportunity spaces that then you can design for. Then I think that part of the process then starts to be more like a traditional design process.
So as soon as you define a clear challenges, clear design brief, clear requirements. Then it's mostly about answering to this brief and requirements with a normal design process. So I really believe that this first part of the process is perhaps the sustainability design part. The other things is just traditional design.
Baptiste: Maybe following up on this whole process and some specific tools or do you have any example of using those methods, examples that, that you can share. So again, not here, but any example of either regrettable design choice or examples of applying those tools?
Francesco: Yeah, well, starting with regrettable design choices, I think I on one project, one, one was one of the first one that I worked.
I remember that's like one of the biggest mistake that I learned a lot from was to again, skip the steps. Right? So in, in that case I was just coming out of university and I had a very specific interest in designing for repair. There was a topic that I really extensively looked into, so I knew a lot.
And it's a topic that I think also brings you towards more engineering related type of design. That is the type of design that I like. And I started this project for this company. And immediately I jumped to conclusions, right? So I pushed this idea of repair as the best strategy for this product.
Even if at the end it was not the right strategy and I did it because of, yeah, personal interest. I didn't do it on purpose. It was simply something that I felt personally, you know, about the topic of repair for consumer products. In that moment I felt that is a strategy that you should always apply because again, if you think about the value wheel is one of the strategies that allows you to have the highest retention of value. So I just went for it. I really advocated for it. I convinced internal stakeholders about it. And then we spent a lot of effort, time, and budget in looking into that and developing solutions.
And then immediately after testing it with users and also after addressing other constraints related to the topic. All lot of the sudden you start realizing, right,I skipped some steps and I jumped to conclusion and I'm applying now a strategy to a product that is simply not a good fit for it.
So, for instance, the users were not interested in repairing the product because the product was very low cost. The business case was extremely challenging because the product was very cheap. Then all of a sudden you're really questioning why you're doing what you do. Because, you feel that nobody is interested in actually making this challenge that strategy real.
And then of course, that's what open often happens because many times you are challenging the way things has always being done, but at the same time, In that case, I really felt that I jumped to conclusions and we started to understand later on in the process there were other things that we could have focused on.
They would've been much more suitable to that specific type of product and context. and that perhaps would've even led to even a bigger impact than repair itself. Yeah. So, yeah, that's one, one repeatable. Yeah. And then and then the other question was specific tools.
Baptiste: Specific tools, but also examples where you thought like in that case: Thank God, we analysed it properly and then we know exactly that this is where we should focus/
Francesco: I think it was actually on the same topic, so it was again, about repair. In that case it was a bit the other way around. So I had a client that really was coming strong about the need of integrating repair in their product category. And I remember that in that moment I really thought again about this other case where we skipped steps and we went immediately into the implementation mode of re of just going for a strategy without already checking if it was the right strategy.
So this time I was really the one that suggested to the clients, well, let's slow down a bit and let's understand and assess if indeed the best strategy for you which I remember many people quite strongly criticized about me.
So of course I was part of a team and a group, and many people are like, what? What are you doing? You are working on sustainability. There is this guy and that wants to work on repair, and you are suggesting to take it careful instead of just going for it.
But at the same time, what I thought in that moment and at the end it actually happened is, I'm not sure if you are really helping a company, if you are yourself not the first critical person, right? So in the other case, we just went for the strategy. We spent a lot of money, a lot of effort, and eventually it was not the right strategy and the entire project was a failure.
So in that moment, this client was really asking for it, and I felt that was my responsibility not to repeat the same mistake and to say : look you are asking for my help because I'm an expert on this topic, and as an expert, I'm telling you that it is better to understand exactly this is what you should focus on.
And I think that at first also, the client was a bit confused about it. Because he thought, I'm bringing up this crazy good topic, interesting topic. Why is this person pushing back? But actually, that was really much appreciated, you know? Then we did all this assessment, we did a very thorough assessment, and eventually we found out that repair was not really the perfect strategy for this specific customer, at least not in the short term.
So what we defined exactly is what does repair for this product mean? And we also defined the transition towards that. So instead of going for full repair from day one, we started with some things, some aspects that were also related to other strategies as well. So for this product group, again very cheap product: consumers currently not really willing to spend money to repair it.
What I eventually suggested was, let's start tackling recyclability because recyclability is eventually something that is always gonna happen at one point or another, and let's start integrating at the same time.
Features that are not only helping recyclability but also repairability so that you can start making a transition. You can start integrating just few features that don't enormously increase your BOM cost, your production cost. They are helping you not only to go towards repair, but also recycling.
And then you can also assess your market and see if those initial solutions are actually being effectively used. So for instance, we focus on removability of batteries, which is very important for repair, but even more for recycling for this specific product. And that allowed also to start doing some user test to understand if users are at least willing to remove the battery for recycling purposes.
So you already optimize your architecture for easy removal of the battery. Automatically doing, you set it up, the architecture for future iterations that enable you to access it even more to get to other components. So overall, you slow down a bit the process, but you also avoided a disaster that would've really made this client unhappy and decided not to focus on sustainability anymore and you are simply bringing them towards the end solution at the right moment in time.
Baptiste: That was great. I'm gonna ask hard question as a follow up. Aren't you afraid by doing this you're not going fast enough?
So being careful with those companies they can progressively change but at the same time, if you look at what we were discussing at the beginning, the climate urgency: Aren't you afraid of not going fast enough? Afraid not to meet the challenges with regard to the climate urgency?
Francesco: Yeah. Right, for sure this is a risk. To take things a bit slower. But at the same time, I'm really wondering about what the options is, right? Because I mean, one thing is that like, it's not just about the manufacturer, right?
It's not just about the product itself. It's not just the way it is designed. It is about the overall system that many times has to change. That also involves stakeholders that are very difficult to influence, like end users. And many times It goes beyond just one manufacturer only, right?
So for instance, an entire industry should start adopting some change to actually get to that end ideal scenario. And I truly believe that most of the time that's not feasible to achieve in the short term. Right? And then let's say we do it and then we are not able to, to actually achieve that end result, then I feel that there would probably have a much bigger negative impact than simply taking things slow.
So let's say we have a consumer product relatively cheap. Consumers are not willing to repair it because it's very cheap. So if it breaks and he's after warranty period they prefer to buy a new one. At the same time, if you break during warranty period, it's so cheap that paying someone to repair it is more expensive than simply sending a replacement product to the user.
We want to go to the ideal scenario which is a very durable product that has a relatively high cost in consumers are willing to use it for a very long time. Or another possible idea scenario many times is rental. So users don't actually own the product, but they go for a subscription pay model.
Then you have to find a way to transition in a very fast period to go from a business that perhaps you develop and you add for many years, let's say 30 years. So also your brand is associated with a specific type of product that again, is a relatively low cost product. With a relatively short life, but users are okay with that because they're paying very little for it.
And you have to transition this business to a much more durable, so much more complex perhaps, and expensive for sure, products. And you have to convince users to be willing to pay more for it, much more for it, and then to keep using it rather than throwing it away after just few years. Or you have to convince users to pay a monthly subs.
To use this product that since yesterday was extremely cheap to buy. I think that this is very challenging. I, I think many times it's really difficult to actually do that in the short term, and I think you sit in, many companies are trying, but I don't see anybody succeeding yet fully in this long term scenario.
Right. Let's say subscription pay model. I don't see yet any, consumer electronics manufacturer really succeeding in that. There are so many trials and pilots also in the Netherlands, for instance. And you really see that they are struggling to actually scale up. Not even scale up like surviving.
I think examples are like rental washing machine. I had one for two years. When I was still starting, the price was very low because there was a European funding evolved. After this European funding stopped, then all of a sudden they had to increase the secretion model to stay. You know, profitable to at least stay, survive, pay the people that were working for, for this very small company.
And then all, all of a sudden you could buy a washing machine with the same price that you would spend in just one year of subscription. And of course, I stopped this, the subscription. Right? But then how do you solve this, right? Because of course you need a list. A business case that allows you to survive.
I'm not saying to make huge profits, but at least to survive. And at the same time, you are competing with a industry that has been optimized for the past 200 years in bringing costs down and to have a linear way of selling products. So the overall system is so complex to to, to. There are so many puzzles in it, and most of them are beyond just one company alone.
That, for me, is impossible to think about achieving this very impactful, the ideal scenario in a very short term. I would love to do it but I personally don't know if I can.
Baptiste: That's fair enough. So now that we've discussed a bit about sustainable design and the kind of things had a bit of a twist question which is : say you had like “Carte Blanche” or you had like a white card, what would be the sustainable product that you would choose to design to make an impact?
Francesco: Well, maybe, maybe you think about maybe two options. Yeah. . If I think about also my personal like interest and passion for sure will be an electronic product. And I think also the level of impact and electronic product, the consumer electronic products can make a lot of impact. I think there are a few reason why is that, first of all, we are really embedding electronics everywhere.
So maybe the key question is if many products should be electronics in the first place. Predictions are showing that also electronic product waste is gonna increase drastically in the coming years. And I feel that there is a huge potential in setting already good principles and and examples now that the market is already quite big.
We have electronics everywhere already, but it's gonna increase even more. So I feel that we are in a good moment where if we create very good examples, case studies that can really. Have a big impact in, on the entire industry. Yeah. The reason is that of course, electronics have a huge impact on the environment, right?
In all the phases. So in materials. So rare material use in all the social consequences that, that have production. So use of very intensive chemicals in the production of electronics use phase energy use, and then disposal. Treatment of e-waste. I feel that if, if you look at many other type of products, right these have a specific type of impact many times.
But many times also really related to a specific phase of the product. Live electronics is a huge impact everywhere. So, and of course is a product that is must produce. So you have also a huge impact because of the scale of production of this type of product. If I would not consider my. Own like a preference?
My, my own interest. I think mobility has also a very big impact, and I'm not talking about single car use. For me at least personally, I believe that that's unsustainable on its own. I, I really question if single. Person means of transports. Can all and at at any point consider sustainable? You know, even if you have an el electric car
I cannot see a sustainable debt for each person.
Or if we have one car or, or like every four or five person, there is a car is simply in many geographies is, is, is a need, right? You, you, you simply cannot move around without the car. But I feel that in. Cities in also Europe for instance. We start to have the opportunity not to own a car like in the Netherlands.
I think you can definitely survive without it. So I feel that there will be a huge impact as a designer in designing for shared type of transports and perhaps also going beyond just designing the product itself. Right? So more also the infrastructure. , but then of course you go beyond product design and perhaps you go into war band planning and these kind of things.
So it's very easy to, all of the sudden if you forget about your personal interest, it's very easy to go beyond product design, you know, because again, it's true the product design has it's only limitation at the level of impact.
Baptiste: What would be or what are you in the process of doing right now? Either in terms of achieving something? Maybe in term of learning, something can be design related but doesn't have to be, can you share one thing where you think, currently I'm in the process of doing this.
Francesco: Ah, it's a tough question. Well, I mean, like professionally-wise I'm definitely on this odyssey and process. So to really learn how, how to design better products, right? That I think also goes beyond sustainability topics. So what I actually saw in the past years is that.
By focusing almost fully on sustainability, I perhaps overlook a bit the other more traditional side of designing products. And I think that that also had a bit of a negative impact on the level of impact that I can achieve, right? Because many times you, you really know exactly how to tackle the sustainability rated topic, but then you kind of bit overlook how or take care.
The more traditional parts that are equally important in eventually developing it and solution.
Baptiste: We’re nearing the end of the session. Couple of extra question, and there, there are short ones. First one, do you know about your carbon footprints?
Francesco: Yeah. I know!
Baptiste: Can you share it?
Francesco: Well, the number you mean what you know about it? I think remember that the number was around eight tons. And I found out because we did a very interesting workshop (2 tonnes workshop) where I work organised but, and I think it was one of the best workshop I did so far. Again, the calculation perhaps was not extremely precise, but they felt that it really had an impact on me because it really shows you exactly where you have the highest.
We did it also together with other colleagues, and I really saw that that has a lot of impact on them as well. So for instance, I'm going back to my. Hometown by train instead of using flight. I think other two colleagues are gonna do that as well. I think I never seen something more effective in actually changing the behavior of people in such a short time.
Yeah. And my main impact is transport because yeah, I work in the Netherlands and my family is in Italy. And I like to see them at least twice a year. But yeah, the, the train infrastructure is, is not really optimized yet. So I'm gonna do it for the first time. Now for the Christmas holidays, and it's gonna take me 14 hours.
Free trains and I think around five to six time the cost that he would've taken me to do it by, by flight. So that doesn't mean that they are good excuses not to do it, but are I think, are good excuses for many people and are not excuses. I think they are good reason to prefer flying compared to a public transport for this long journeys, but I think that it should not be the case.
So I'm also really questioning if. Europe is pretty serious about these targets and I really believe that. Yeah, I would expect seek reforms around, for instance, long distance transportation because right now there is no good alternative to flying. Coming back to mobility. Yeah. Coming back to, yeah.
Baptiste: Okay. Another one, maybe a quick one. How do you see the evolution of your job as a design engineer in 25 years?
Francesco: Yeah, 25 years. Well, I think there is a good scenario. In a bad scenario, there is a bad scenario that is, I'm gonna be dead or part of a civil war and there is a good scenario where, yeah, I'm gonna practically become obsolete.
Right. I feel that like if we succeed, so if we don't end up in a civil ward, then the only option I see is that circularity and sustainability becomes part of everything we do. And it's intrinsically part of any, any activity in project we do. So I see it a bit like cut modeling, right? Sometimes. So strange for me to look at some teases.
I saw some old design teases from a mid 90. From T Dells, where were people that were experimenting with computer aided design, and they were really talking about the process that you have to follow to design using cards. And that was really the core of their thesis, right? And today, if you think about that, you, you think, oh, this is crazy, right?
This is just a tool. This is just part of the entire process. I cannot imagine how someone graduated just explaining how to use CAD in their design. . And I feel that that is also gonna be about sustainable design. If I'm gonna tell to people in 25 years while I started my career by being a sustainability expert, they're gonna be like how is it possible that you could get paid by doing that?
You know, like that's simply what we do. So that's how I see it in 25 years, I'm gonna need to find the different job or gonna need to get better. And the other things that are not only sustainable care relation.
Baptiste: 2 extra questions: Can you share with the community a book or a podcast or a resource that you think is valuable and that you absolutely need to to to read or to go through? So that's the first question. And the second question, would you have a, a piece of advice for younger younger designer or someone who is just starting his or her career in sustainability.
Francesco: I don’t know if I have a very elegant answer about the books because when, when someone ask me, oh, good book to read, then immediately I think about very applied books.
That I read that I really liked. So for instance about this assembly, the reverse fish bond diagrams, that is actually a paper I believe that was written by ihi. I, I never learned how I to properly pronounce his name. It was a hard, eh, stem for pro professor in late eighties, I believe.
And he was already giving lessons about design for this assembly for end of life, strateg. and I, when I read all this stuff, I was really like, what? What happened to this guy? Yeah. What happened to all this good work that was done already 20, 30 years ago? And people don't even know about it anymore. And I think that how you wrote about the topic, you wrote it in a very simple way.
That made it very accessible also for me, the first time that I was learning about the topic. And all of the sudden a lot of things started to make a lot of sense to me. And then yeah, and then on, on recycling, there is a very nice thesis that was written by students from the, yeah, I don't remember anymore. The name of the students and the university. That's all right. About recycling.
Baptiste: If you think about it, we can just make sure to add it in the comments.
Francesco: Yeah. Okay. But very nice. About designing for for recycling of electronics. And this person really went in depth into the topic and she structured also the content in yeah, in a very good way.
She also gives a very good overview about the overall recycling word, also the stakeholder symbol. And she really gets to that practical level of knowledge that I really was looking for when I was designing for recycling.
Baptiste: Nice. Last question. Would you be able to share a piece of advice for a younger designer or someone just starting his or her career in in sustainment?
Francesco: Well, I have one For people that are interested in doing sustainability, that might not be the most encouraging advice, but is a realistic advice.
It's really full of people, the ones who work on sustainability right now. Right. And I think it's great, but I also feel that a lot of people don't fully also understand how much that is gonna take of you at the level of those sort like psychological and also the level of commitment and effort, right?
I feel it's a very complex topic and it's gonna have a toll on you and for sure compared to other topics is something that you are really gonna have to fight for. So if you want to work on sustainability, I would really advise to young generations to, you know, take it seriously and understand that it's really a journey, something that is gonna take much longer.
Specializing or focusing on other topics, and it's gonna involve a lot of skills that I believe many times are less relevant for other design topics like stakeholder managements, a lot of politics involved. A lot of convincing, a lot of fighting and not giving up. But this might demoralize a bit, but I feel that might also help for someone to think about it before just embarking to this experience and perhaps ending up, you know, cream washing or ending up doing the topic a bit halfway, because I think that that's the worst thing that you can do.
Cause the topic is still something that's, Is looking for credibility. Again, it's full of people that are talking about it round. I would say at least 50% if not don't know what they are talking about. And I think they're doing more damage than goods, and they are damage also the credibility of other people working on the topic.
So what I'm, yeah, my advice is really like, you want to work on sustainability. I think it's great and we really need you, but then take you seriously.
Baptiste: Okay Francesco, thank you for your time. And yeah, thank you for the insightful insightful answers. We'll just make sure to share everything on the websites and where can we reach you out?
Francesco: Well, I suppose the easiest ways on LinkedIn. So feel free to write me directly there. Otherwise, you can always reach out to VanBerlo where I'm working with a beautiful team of other five, four great experts.